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海外留学者 vs 国内英語学習者 PART2

1 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 00:43
海外に2年くらい留学してた人と、日本国内で英
語を勉強してる人とでは、どちらが英語力があ
るんでしょうか? もともとの英語力は二人とも似
たようなものだします。年齢は20過ぎぐらい
で。国内学習者でもがんばれは留学者のように英
語力を身につけすことができることができるよ
うになれすんでしょうか?

このスレは→マジスレです。煽り厳禁。


2 : ◆BnNJsMYZJo :04/05/04 00:44
Thanks.


3 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 00:45
とりあえず次スレ立ててみました。
過去ログへのリンクの貼り方とか知らないので、
知ってる方お願いします。

4 :俺もバイ:04/05/04 00:49
乙でつ

5 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 00:49
http://academy2.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/english/1024928919/
ありがとうございます。とりあえず前スレにすぐ行けるように前スレリンク

6 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 00:54
http://academy2.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/english/1024928919/800-1000
>>800>>1000までの履歴です(まだ1000いってないけど一応ね。)

7 :前スレ987:04/05/04 01:04
前スレ>>994

As I said in >>946, in my opinion, Japanese people should go to English-speaking countries
only if they have their distination or something. Otherwise, they never be able to learn English in
the other countries, and they will just waste their time and money.Well, at least they can feel the cultural differences though...

Thus, I agree with the opinin that people should go to abroad to learn English...
However, I do not want to see some kind of stupid Japanese student who do not even try to
learn English even though they are already in the other countries. It seems to me that
they are wasting their time, and they are damaging Japanese reputation.

8 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 01:04
前スレ996
http://academy2.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/english/1024928919/996

Maybe those girls were using the English study part just as an excuse
to have their parents allow them to go abroad. As you observed, theu
probably had no intention of learning English. From that perspective,
I think including them in considering the effectiveness of studying
abroad is not appropriate.

9 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 01:22
Hi. I've moved to this thread now.
My point was that it's better than nothing to go on a study tour.
The girls just loved it and I'm sure they were able to widen their perspectives
by living with their home-stay families no matter how short their
stay was. The impact you get from visiting a country where the
language you are trying to learn is so big that they might start
studying English very hard AFTER they come back to Japan. Who knows?

10 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 01:25
http://academy2.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/english/1024928919/994
I agree with >>8. That is what I was saying above.

to ◆BnNJsMYZJo
>the idea that people who are not talented enough to
>learn English in Japan can learn English in an English-speaking country
>is a myth.
The difference is "with effort" "without effort". I didn't do anything and I learned English.
This would NOT have been possible had I been in Japan.

Could you also answer my question in
http://academy2.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/english/1024928919/994

11 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 01:34
I made a big mistake in >>9.
I was saying the impact is so big that the kids on a study tour
might get motivated to learn English very hard when they get back
to Japan.
ふう、まだまだなかなかです。

12 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 01:38
ところで>>9は誰に向かって述べてるんだ?


13 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 01:44
>>10
>I didn't do anything and I learned English.

How did you do that?
Were you born and raised by English speaking parents or
grew up in an English speaking country? I mean it sounds highly
improbable to learn a foreign language without any effort unless
you grew up in that language.

14 :10:04/05/04 01:52
>>11>>9
You didn't make a big mistake. Your sentence is perfectly understandable as it is in 9.

>>13 You are not ◆BnNJsMYZJo?


15 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 01:56
what kinda thread is this?

16 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 01:57
>>14
No, I'm not.


17 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 01:58
うーん。誰が誰に向かって言ってるのか相手がさっぱりわかんなくなってきたぞ。
ディベート方式みたいにさ、
affirmativeなのかagainst(negative)なのか立場をわかるような
形で名前を付けてカキコしない?っていってももう誰もいないのか?


18 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:00
>>12
Sorry I was trying to talk to the people who seem to think that
study tours are altogether a waste of money and meaningless.

>>14
Thanks. I sometimes feel stupid when I try to speak English
to somebody who can also understand Japanese... Why bother
trying to use my poor English... You saying "perfectly understandable"
is quite encouraging.


19 :15:04/05/04 02:02
can i join in you guys now?
So, what is a topic?


20 :15:04/05/04 02:03
hrm...
now i understand what kind of stuff you guys're talkin'

21 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:04
>>13I went abroad when I was 9. I went to International School. My parents don't speak English.


22 : ◆BnNJsMYZJo :04/05/04 02:05
>>10
>The difference is "with effort" "without effort". I didn't do anything and I learned English.
>This would NOT have been possible had I been in Japan.

Then, maybe you are one of successful rare cases.
But I believe you put some effort into learning to spell correctly and read.
It is possible that you do not need any conscious effort to learn to
talk about everyday topics if you learn English in an English-speaking
country, but you probably need to put a lot of effort into learning to
talk about difficult topics.

For example, you may learn, without effort, what to say when you buy
something just by hanging around in a shopping center with friends,
but you cannot learn, without effort, what to say when you discuss
a mathematical problem because you need to study mathematics in English
to be able to do it.


>You are the proof for all your claims, am I right?

I do not remember all of my claims, but at least some of them are
based on my direct personal experience. Others may be based on
what I saw with my own eyes, that is, what happened to someone else.
I tend not to believe what other people say until I make sure it is really true.

For example, there are people who say that if you stay in the United
States for a few months, you can speak English fluently. I do not
believe this story because what I have actually seen with my own eyes
so far is that nobody can speak English fluently even after staying in
the United States for one year.


23 :15:04/05/04 02:06
>>I sometimes feel stupid when I try to speak English
to somebody who can also understand Japanese... Why bother
trying to use my poor English...

I feel the same way
and they often speak something they normally talk about in japanese
that's pretty stupid

24 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:07
>>21
Do yo mean you went to International School in Japan or abroad...it that
kind of thing exists?

25 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:07
>>19

of course you can join us...
well, the topic is ...just read the title.
write what you think about the topic.
then, people in this thread will make a responce to you.


26 :15:04/05/04 02:12
>>海外に2年くらい留学してた人と、日本国内で英
語を勉強してる人とでは、どちらが英語力があ
るんでしょうか?

I guess 2years is almost nothing to pick up English for japanese.
and i've never met a person who speaks usable english who just studied it
in japan


27 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:13
>>23

whom are you talking to?

28 :10:04/05/04 02:15
>>24 International School abroad.

29 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:15
huh?
how about YA?

30 : ◆BnNJsMYZJo :04/05/04 02:15
>>21
Then your situation is actually different from that of most of those who
want to learn English in an English-speaking country because they are
usually older than 14 years old.


31 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:16

アメリカ留学は日本語だけで生きていけたりするからなぁ・・
国内だろうが国外だろうが、必死にならないと意味ない

32 : ◆BnNJsMYZJo :04/05/04 02:18
>>26
>i've never met a person who speaks usable english who just studied it
in japan

You have just met such a person (me) here.


33 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:18
how do you know that?
>>31


34 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:19
>>26

>I guess 2years is almost nothing to pick up English for japanese.
and i've never met a person who speaks usable english who just studied it
in japan

Well, I believe there are some Japanese who speak usable English who just studied English in Japan.

35 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:19
>>28
It might be inappropriate to ask here(スレ違い)but
what is the benefit of attending International School abroad
rather than a local school?

36 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:20
>>29

What is "YA"?

37 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:22
ここけっこう熱いな

38 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:23
>>31
let me take a literal meaning of 必死 as desperate
and let me tell ya one thing
when you become really desperate, you not gonnna learn much
the inportant thing is to prepare the environment in which you can
enjoy yourself in that process of studying english
learning a foreign language is a long-term game plan
you can be "desperate" to get A in a mid-term exam
but you can't be desperate for 3,5, or 20 years
if you so, you wound be dead by now by stress



39 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:29
>>26

>I guess 2years is almost nothing to pick up English for japanese.
and i've never met a person who speaks usable english who just studied it
in japan

Then, please tell me your opinion that how many years are necessary for learning English...
In my opinion, it depends on how much the person try to learn English. So, it doesn't matter
how many years going to abroard.

40 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:34
>>39
I don't mean to nitpick but you don't need to say TO
when you say go TO abroad...but to go abroad is a right way to say.

41 :10:04/05/04 02:34
BnNJsMYZJo→okay I understand you in >>30.

>>35 It's not スレ違い because you're asking me.
Sometimes, International schools are all they have.
I happened to be in Singapore at the time and all foreigners
in Singapore go to an International school. The local system is quite different
and it's restricted to locals.

42 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:36
japanese and english are quite defferent language
almost no connection between them ecpt japanese use katakana
english
but their sounds are far away from original english terms...
how many years have you spent learning usable japanese?
then you can guss how many years you have to spend in learning
english


43 : ◆BnNJsMYZJo :04/05/04 02:38
>>9
>The impact you get from visiting a country where the
>language you are trying to learn is so big that they might start
>studying English very hard AFTER they come back to Japan. Who knows?

Agencies that handle homestay programs seem to know about it.
They say people under the age of 14 do not study English harder even
if they go to an English-speaking country and stay there for some weeks.
It is just a fun experience for them and nothing else.

But a few of the homestay participants who are 14 years old or above study English harder after they come back to Japan.

However, in my opinion, it is better to think of a way you can make English learning in Japan a fun experience. Otherwise you can never
reach a high level of English proficiency.


44 :10:04/05/04 02:41
>>42
I don't think your question is very valid because you're asking us,
a bunch of Japanese whose mother tongue is Japanese.
Obviously learning your first language and your second language is not the same.

45 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:41
>>41
Thank you for answering my question. Isn't it nice...because
you got to know not only Singagoreans but students from all over
the world.

I've got to go now. Thank you everyone. See ya.

46 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:41
homestay sucks!

47 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:43
>>42

have you read that the sentence「年齢は20過ぎぐらい
で。」?

that means, he may have already studied English for at least 6 years 'cause
normaly, people in Japan study English at a junior high school, high school
and college.


48 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:44
>>44
ok, study hard, boy

49 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:46
>>46
Hey! How come?

50 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:55
バカ丸出し
ウンコ手づかみ

51 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 02:58
>>48 無言

52 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 06:00
You could be anything you wanted to be if you put your mind to it.
Beats me, If I was wrong.

53 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 08:34
じゃあ、ウンコになろうと思えばウンコになれるんですか?

54 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 08:35
てゆーか、もうお前ウンコだもんなw

55 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 11:07
>53 >54
God dam stupid bone heads.
If you post only those crap in Japanese, go away out of this site.
If you can do in English, do it so. We will check you out.


56 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 11:23
多分、PSEとOBがほとんどの書き込み

57 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 11:51
>>56
英語鬼神のこと?

58 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 12:34
誰それ

59 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 13:14
How's going?
These days, I study english hard to get TOEIC score 900.
Here in Japan,900 score is really good proof to get
a job or show your English skill.
To get a 900 socre is my English road.
I won't give up.

60 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 14:27
Whats the difference between "to study english" and "to learn english"?
Id always be taught by my teacher to use "learn". But the word "study" might sound appropriate
when used to descirbe the preparation of TOEIC. Im getting confused by
these two words.

61 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 14:39

誰としゃべっているのだろう?

62 :60:04/05/04 15:18
Im asking anyone on this thread, esp 59.

63 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 15:27
59=60?

64 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 15:29
and also=pse or ob?

65 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 15:30
>>59

Keep it up!
Your English is good enough.

66 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 15:36
>>65は日本人?外国人?

67 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 16:00
>>60
A WORD "STUDY" SOUNDS MORE ACADEMIC THAN LEARNING: FOR YOU ARE A LEARNER OF ENGLISH NOT A SCHOLAR
"STUDYING" ENGLISH LANGUAGE, IT IS MORE APPROPRIATE FOR YOU TO USE WORD "LEARN" THAN "STUDY".

68 :60:04/05/04 16:05
>>67
then if 59 wants to improve his TOEIC score, he should have said
i learn english hard instead. am i right?
Cause these days there seems to be so many ppl who make mistake in
saying "study english".

69 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 16:54
必死だな

70 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 17:03
英語読めるなら全然必死じゃないことが分かりますよ

71 :67:04/05/04 17:06
>>60
I don't know. I guess you can say "I'm preparing for TOEIC exam." but
if you want to use a word "study", you just can do it. It depends totally on
how you want to express your effort ... nobody has a right to rule out what you are
doing to be expressed by a word 'learning' or 'studying'.



72 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 17:08
>>60
ジニアスには 《learn は「覚える」、「習得する」という結果的意味、studyは「そのために
努力して勉強する」の意》とある。
でも 場合にもよるだろうが一般に study English でも learn English でもどちらかが「mistake」(>>68)
というものではないんでは。

73 :67:04/05/04 17:10
Or just say "I'm hitting the books hard for TOEIC." Maybe this is the best expression
for what you are doing.

74 :60:04/05/04 17:12
thank you. i now feel more confident about them :)

75 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 20:00
時間間隔からして必死。読めても興味ないから読まない。ネイティブの英語じゃないし。

76 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/04 20:42
ネイティブの英語じゃないと、読まないのか?

77 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/05 09:20
"Hit the books hard" is slang. "Study hard" is more appropriate if you
are to use standard English.

I am studying hard for the TOEIC.

or

I am studying hard for the TOEIC test.


78 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/05 12:22
I agree with 77. It's better not to use slangs if you usually don't,
or if it's not in the right context.


79 :10:04/05/05 12:52
I have something good to say here for a change!

Until recently I thought that doing カキコ in 2ch English
threads was a waste of time because I never come here
to collect information or do anything of use.
BUT these days, I'm starting to feel that my English in
response to Japanese is getting better.
This is great because all these years, I had this problem of
not being able to link English and Japanese together in my
head (missing synapse) because I'd never learnt English through
Japanese.
But since I've been doing some Japanese>English translations on
another thread, this problem seems to have eased down.

The reason why this is so great is because I would make a crap
bilingual if I couldn't translate freely between the two
languages. I think that some people in my situation (learned
two languages separately, as opposed to one through another)
might understand what I'm on about. Anyway, enough pep talk for now.

80 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/05 18:33
>>79
By connecting English with Japanese, you will have more problems than
you can possibly imagine, either with English or Japanese.
For example, if an ordinary English learner did it, his English would be
destroyed and become incomprehensible sooner or later.
That is the main reason why the direct method is recommended
though actually most language schools that claim to be using it are frauds,
just extorting money from students. You could claim to be using the
direct method if you did not use Japanese to teach English.
But the direct method is not that simple.

At any rate, you will probably get into trouble later. If I were you,
I would continue to learn English and Japanese separately. Then if
you become really good at both languages, I think your translation problem will be solved.

81 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/05 23:10
>>79>>80
I am always very curious about... in what language truly bilingual people
think. I've been learning English for so many years and I don't think
the day will never come when I feel I have acquired English. I might be
bilingual in a less strict sense but I always think everything in
Japanese never in English. People sometimes say I speak English with
such a speed that they assume I think in English when I speak English,
but fortunately or unfortunately it never happens with me. I think
something in Japanese first and I translate as quickly as possible.
Is it common with people who started a second language after their
puberty? What do you think?


82 :10:04/05/05 23:27
>>80 
Really? Do you reckon?
I don't know... I don't feel that it will destroy any skills I already have.
What I mean by "linking" them together is that I've started to become
aware of the way in which English works - for example, someone asked earlier
about where to place "not only...but also" in a sentence. Usually when I write
a sentence or speak it, I'm not aware of its construction, but because
someone asked about it, I had to think about why I would use that phrase the way
I do, and then it became clear to me why it has to be placed in a certain position.
So if someone asks now, I wouldn't need to think about it, because I know how to
explain it in Japanese (well, only without using a lot of grammatical jargon).

So, this is the kind of "linking" I'm talking about. It might also include things like
how to say one thing in Japanese and translate the meaning directly into Japanese - not
a direct translation word for word, but how to effectively translate what it's trying to
get across. From your suggestion I've also started to think that maybe the current problem
I'm facing will be resolved if I become better at Japanese... so maybe it's just that.
Either way, the things that I do now don't seem to be making anything worse so I'm quite content.


83 :10:04/05/05 23:34
>>81
I think in English when I speak/write in English,
and I think in Japanese when I speak/write in Japanese.
But my daily "thinking" takes place in no language (subconscious).

But I know exactly how you feel, because when I attempt to
speak French, I think in English. I'm really crap at French though.

84 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/05 23:35
>>81
Most of successful English learners think in English when they speak English
and think in Japanese when they speak Japanese.

There are some people like you, however, and the person I know who translates
as she speaks English cannot understand fast-spoken English because
she cannot translate fast enough.


85 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/05 23:41
>>83>>84
Thank you for answering my questiom. >>83 You went to an English
speaking country at age of 9 and learned it by getting immersed
in the language...right. So the language learning took place
in your childhood. I wonder if there is a critical age to
start thinking in a foreign language.

>>84
Hmmm. No wonder I am poor at listening comprehension...

86 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/05 23:42
>>82
Usually you never notice what is happening to your languages until
someone points out mistakes in your writing or speech.
So it could be too late for you to turn back at that time.


87 :10:04/05/05 23:59
>>85
After trying to analyse my experience at 9, I conclude the following:
When I got bunged into International school at age 9, I couldn't speak
a word of English except for maybe "perape-ra", which obviously isn't English.
So for the first few months, I escaped the horrifying situation of "English everywhere"
by smiling and nodding. As you can see, I was pretty much in a baby situation - you know
how babies learn by hearing and observing. After three months I somehow started to understand
what everybody was talking about, and after that, the understanding process took place really
rapidly, and by half a year, everything fell into place and English changed from "noise" to "something
meaningful". This might be the reason why I think in English.

I reckon that even if I had been 15 at the time, I would have still managed to do the same thing, though
perhaps at a slower rate. The important thing is to learn like a baby, not through Japanese.

In any case, people like me have our own problems too, so I see no disadvantage in
learning English through Japanese like you did.

88 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/06 00:03
>>86
Mmmm...Scary... Anyway I hope >>10 will be all right.
Sometimes English speaking people from abroad and living in Japan
says that their English has started being influenced by Japanese
English. One of them laughed about how he made an error like
"grow cows" instead of saying "raise cows."

89 :10:04/05/06 00:06
>>86
Exactly how would I lose an ability that I already possess?
You seem to be saying that being aware of what I'm doing will
destroy my ability.
Have you experienced it? If it isn't possible for you to stand
in my shoes, your point seems like it's not based on anything.

90 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/06 00:13
>>87
I wish I could do that. I mean I can't be a baby. sometimes my
stupid self-consciousness gets in the way.
But you told us there is no disadvantage in learning through
Japanese, which is encouraging.
I now have a dream that I will start thinking in English when
I speak and write English without the help of Japanese.

91 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/06 00:23
>>90
when you look at the sentence "there is an apple."
do you translate it once into japanese? i can hardly think so.
you may not know but you already started unconsciously to understand english without
intervention of japanese.

92 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/06 00:30
One day a truly bilingual guy said, "さっすが〜〜" . I was interested
in what he would translate that into English, expecting him to say
something which is an adjective because "さっすが〜〜" in an adjective
in Japanese. To my surprise he said "I've trusted you." or something
I don't remember what he said exactly, but it was not an adjective at all.
Truly bilingual guys are free from literal translation, which I
thought, is great.


93 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/06 00:37
>>92
thats interesting :)

94 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/06 00:37
>>91
You are right. Simple sentences like "there is an apple" can be
understood without intervention of my mother tongue.
I can say formulas like "Nice talking to you,""Can I take a message?"
and things. Formulas are fine.
If I try to turn every possible thing I might say into formula,
I might not think in Japanese when I speak in English. No?
What do you think?

95 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/06 00:39
>>89
If you teach English, this will be something that happens to your
students all the time.
A student who once raised a cow now starts to grow a cow suddenly.

"Whatever happened to you?"
--"Nothing."
"Do you translate at home?"
--"Yes, but only for a month."


96 :10:04/05/06 00:42
>>90
Yes, the learning process has to take place in the same way by
which a baby would learn, so it wouldn't be possible for you to
un-learn and then re-learn at this point.
You've alredy learnt English and you did it through a different path
so you can't go back unless you bang your head somewhere and forget
everything.

I say this to a lot of people, but I think that the greatest advantage
of thinking in English becomes clear at the cinema.
Japanese people cannot possibly comprehend an English film in the same
way that a native can. The same goes for English people watching Japanese flms.
It's the gap in how you percieve something. You need the brain of a dog to
understand a dog, right? Well that's what this is about. If you live in Japan,
there's nothing else to appreciate but English movies, so if I was to be
advantageous in Japan, that would be it.
See, it's not such a big deal. But having said that, I wouldn't underestimate
the greatness of being able to watch a movie and understand it in its true form.

97 :10:04/05/06 00:50
>>92
That's true. Translation should aim to translate 感覚.
By the way さっすがー might be anything like:
"I had faith in you"
"I knew you'd do it"
"I'm impressed"
"wow"
"well, what can I say?"
"never doubted you"
depending on context. Your friend must have said "I trusted you", which
is similar to "never doubted you".

98 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/06 00:56
>>96
Yeah, I've noticed that. I never understand an English film in
the same level as the native speakers do regardless of the help
of subtitles. Some of the things talked about are really culturally
determined and seem to have a lot to do with the common knowledge
English speaking people all share. They night use lots of slangs
and they might talk about famous people they all seem to know in
films. Or some things are very funny because they are parodies
of words in a literature or what someone said in the past.
It is almost impossible to understand everything.

99 :91:04/05/06 00:59
>>94
Damn right. Conversation without translation is really a result of
the accumulation of those formulae. You will eventually understand
english clearly unless some extremely unfamiliar or abstract words are used in the
conversation, such as unscrupulous, presidency and canopy and so on.

100 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/06 00:59
>>10
Thank you for talking with me.
I've got to go.
See ya.

101 :91:04/05/06 01:01
but if you keep using those words frequently they will eventually become
yours, no matter how abstract they are. You will be over them.

102 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/06 01:02
>>91
Than you too.

103 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/06 01:22
By the way, the word "slang" is normally an uncountable noun in standard English,
so it does not take the plural "-s".


104 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/06 21:28
>>103
Thank you for pointing out my mistake.
I sometimes ask a native speaker of English to go over what I write.
It is amazing how many errors I still keep making for all these years I've
been learning it. Sometimes native speakers read aloud what I wrote
several times and say,"It just doesn't sound rigt," or something.
They cannot explain how but my writing sometimes doesn't seem natural
or just isn't correct grammatically. Oh, well, it seems I've got to
live with it.

105 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/07 00:05
I lived abroad for a year and learned English as an exchange student when I was in
university. I was well past the critical age when we can learn a language naturally,
I think, but living abroad and used English in my everyday life for as short as it was
surely did good to the learning of the language.
Of course I know only a year is not long enough to learn it to the level I want my
English to be but I would never have gotten to use it as I am using it now without
my experience abroad.
It seems some people said in this thread that if we choose the right method and
make the best use of the Internet, English films, English books, overseas radios,
we can get to be able to speak English as fluently as the people who
learned it in English speaking countries. It might be true to some
extent, but I still think the people said that just played devils advocate or
exaggerated their experience. It is not impossible but highly unprobable to
get to be able to speak it if you have only passive one-sided communication
tools rather than interactive communication methods.
What do you think? へたくそ英語スマン。


106 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/07 11:10
>>105
ちょっと読みにくいけどOKです。


個人的な感想だけど海外行くと流れるプールで前に泳いでるような感じ。
日本にいると流れるプールで反対向きに泳いでるような感じがします。

107 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/07 15:54
>>105
I am the one who said something like:

>if we choose the right method and make the best use of the Internet,
>English films, English books, overseas radios, we can get to be able
>to speak English as fluently as the people who learned it in English
>speaking countries.

You can question it if you like. But don't worry. I applied this
method to many other people, and they all learned English very
successfully. Actually the direct method involves interaction in
English between the teacher and the students. However, some students
refuse to speak English, but that does not seem to matter at all.
If you think about how we learn our native language, you will probably
notice even those who never or rarely speak learn to speak after all.
In the case of foreign language learning, the only difference is that
someone needs to correct students' mistakes and guide them so that
they follow the right path to the mastery of the target language.

108 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/07 16:52
しかし、うんこみたいな英語だね、みんな

109 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/07 17:26
あなたが気にすることはないよ!

次!

110 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/07 18:37
>108
じゃあ書き直してみなさいよ。
出来ないでしょ?
だったらカスはお前だっちゅうの。

111 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/07 19:33
I think >>108 is now trying to rewrite the posts like in Teru's thread.
Someone said poor writing is like a poorly-knitted sweater or something.
To make it presentable, all you've got to do is undo it and do it all
over again. Also my post is not worthwhile to do so. 残念ながらネ。

112 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/07 21:10
>>107

Thank you for replying to my question. So I gather that you are an
English teacher. You guide your students to the right path...but how?
You teachers talk to your students and they try talk to you in English.
You surely have some interactions. Some of your students refuse to
speak in English but you think it all right because babies just listen
to their mothers or caretakers for the first 20 months but everntually
they start speaking their native language...
If you have enough input, you can expect some output...
I try to sum it up but does it sound all right?


113 :名無しさん@3周年:04/05/07 21:27
talk と speak の 違いは?

114 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/07 22:06
>>112
>You guide your students to the right path...but how?

You do not need to stick to English when you explain to your students
how to study English. So I do it in Japanese.


>does it sound all right?

Yes.

115 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/07 22:40
>>107
>I applied this method to many other people, and they all learned English very
>successfully.

So your method has helped lots of your students learn English. It is very
interesting, and I am curious to know what age group they are. Are they
very young students and still susceptible to language learning?
In that case I see that it works. If young learners are immersed in
lots of English (the Internet, novels, newspaper, etc) they will just
learn, without taking a step out of Japan.

116 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/07 22:45
海外留学した人の方が流暢になって帰ってくるよ。これ常識。
自分は金も暇もガッツもないので純ドメですが。

117 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/07 23:42
>>115
>what age group they are

All ages.


>If young learners are immersed in lots of English (the Internet, novels,
>newspaper, etc) they will just learn, without taking a step out of Japan.

It is not that simple or easy. You need to learn English without
resorting to Japanese. That means you will have hard time understanding
English. In this regard teachers have hard time too. For example,
teachers may need to draw many pictures to explain the meaning
of words and sentences. It is not that you teach English in English,
and then students automatically understand what you say in English.

If you are to teach the word "bus," you may have to draw pictures of
different types of cars including "van," "taxi," "bus," etc. just to
teach one word--"bus." It is not just words. You need to teach
grammar and usage in the same way too. It is really hard to teach this way.
Think how hard it would be to show the difference between "I ate an apple yesterday"
and "I eat an apple every day" by using pictures only. So teachers need to
be very good.

118 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 00:12
>>115
>they all learned English very successfully.
May I ask you in what way they are successful? Do many of them
pass entrance exams of famous universities? Or do they get to
pass qualifications like English proficiency test?

>>117
>so teachers need to be very good.
Yes, they need to be very good. Are all of you bilingual teachers
like yourself or any of them native speakers of English?


119 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 00:15
いつからここは英語で討論するスレになったんでつか?

120 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 00:18
>>119

Since when?
Since now.

121 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 00:35
英語で討論するの構わないけど「その使い方は国内学習者独特だね」
とか「ネィティブはそんな使い方しない」とかって不毛な揚げ足取り合戦だと
思うのは私だけ?この板の特徴だけどさ。
多少、不自然でも意思疎通が図れればそれでいいと思うんだけどね。

コピーペ

どうせ俺たち日本人なんだから日本人英語でいいじゃんね。

122 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 00:39
>>121

I can't agree with you more...
あんたは偉い。

123 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 02:24
あひゃ?でも、良スレだな。

124 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 02:28

パジャマに着替えなさい!! 新しいのはここにあるから!

125 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 02:31
は〜い。
さてと、Vガンダムみてからオナニーして寝よ(☆ ☆)

126 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 02:32
私が横にいながら、ひとりでするわけ?!!!

127 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 02:34
じゃ、今日はわたしが先にそうしよっと!

128 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 02:37
じゃ、並んでするか?
別にオナニーは一人でするスポーツじゃないよ。
普通は40人くらいで円を描くように座ってするもんなんだよ。
はちの字とかね。


129 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 02:38
重なってしよ!

130 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 02:44
>>121
I agree with you too. The kind of English that native speakers
speak is not necessarily better than the English we learn from
books, etc. Basically as long as it is a good decent English,
people can understand it. One thing though, is that sometimes
pople here have the tendancy to correct the "too native" English
into "more Japanese" English. Why can't we just talk without
being so picky?

131 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 02:45

ええ! やなの?! ショック!

132 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 02:56
>>130
自分英作文苦手なんで日本語でレスしちゃうけど
文章自体に何の問題も間違いも無ければ
ネィティブっぽい文章でも日本人英語でもどちらでもOKだよね。
そういう事を言ってるんだよね?

133 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 03:07
>>132
そうです。 要約してくれて、ありがとう。

134 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 08:48
>121
自分もそう思ったよ。すぐわかるね。

135 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 20:10
お金があればなあ、、、

136 :コピペ推奨:04/05/08 22:25

*****これからお見合いを検討している親御さんのみなさま*****


女性が留学した経歴をもつというのは一見輝かしく思われる方もおられると思いますが、
最近では男獲りの目的の女性がかなり増えているということです
くれぐれも素性、妊娠、堕胎歴等も多くございますので
不安のある方は避けられた方が無難かと思われますよ

決していい加減な話でもありませんよ。



137 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/08 23:31
In Japan or outside Japan girls are girls. They fall in love.
They might sleep with a man. They might be unfortunate enough to get
pregnant. Of course they should be blamed for their ignorance but
is it only their fault? I don't think so.

138 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/09 18:34
is it only their fault?

yes. are there other people to be blamed?

139 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/17 13:48
楽しそうなスレですね。

140 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/17 13:50
>>137
>In Japan or outside Japan girls are girls. They fall in love.

I wonder what 'love' means to you.

141 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/20 00:20
chinko piku-piku?

142 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/20 00:40
If you wanna learn English, just live abroad.
Lots of people say that kind of thing.
I agree with it. In my experence, however, there is
certain of advantage as for learning English in Japan .
You can improve your gramer,reading,writing, also
listening skill , even if you live in Japan.
You should do input,before improving your speaking skill.
If you do so, your English will be getting better.

143 :名無しさん@英語勉強中:04/05/20 00:52
gramer ????

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